The Cormier wiretaps

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This article was published 20/02/2018 (2499 days ago), so information in it may no longer be current.

The man accused of killing 15-year-old Tina Fontaine more than three years ago did not shy away from talking about her while he was being investigated for murder.

The Winnipeg Police Service spent six months on an undercover investigation that involved bugging Raymond Cormier’s apartment and sending in undercover officers to interact with him as investigators gathered evidence in Tina’s death. They collected more than 10,000 intercepted conversations from a recording probe in Cormier’s Logan Avenue residence starting in June 2015.

Some of those conversations are considered the Crown’s “strongest evidence” implicating the 56-year-old accused killer.

Tina’s body was pulled from the Red River on Aug. 17, 2014, eight days after she was reported missing. Cormier was charged in connection with her death nearly 18 months later, in December 2015.

He was arrested and questioned on Oct. 1, 2014, about six weeks after Tina’s body was found in the Red River, but he wasn’t charged at that time. He remained in jail on two unrelated charges — theft and breach of a court order — until June 2015, when the undercover operation Project Styx began. In addition to the secret recordings, police staged 62 different scenarios for undercover officers to interact with Cormier and elicit reactions. The conversations Cormier had in his apartment, when he didn’t know homicide investigators were listening and when he was likely using drugs, include admissions of his guilt, the Crown argues.

“These intercepts are really the heart of the Crown’s case,” Crown prosecutor James Ross told the Winnipeg jury Tuesday. He asked the jury not to overthink Cormier’s comments — but Cormier’s defence lawyer, Tony Kavanagh, offered different interpretations of the snippets of recorded conversations, and said they must be considered in context.

“He threw Tina Fontaine in the river because she was supposed to be legal, but she was only 15,” Ross told the jury.

“He’s regretful about the fact that he let her go, that she stormed off. In other words, he wished he had stopped her from doing that,” Kavanagh said.

Here are some of those excerpts — and the Crown’s and defence’s interpretations of them — as told to the jury Tuesday. The jury has been instructed not to rely on transcripts of the conversations, but to listen to them via the audio and headsets the court provided during deliberations.

A note to readers: profanity has been censored in the text of the transcriptions, but has not been edited out of the audio. Listener discretion is advised.

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CORMIER: "I drew the line and that’s why she got killed… She got killed, I’ll make you a bet, she got killed because we found out, I found out, she was 15 years old."

The Crown’s interpretation: Evidence that Cormier harmed Tina because he had sex with her and then found out she was underage.

The defence’s interpretation: "Why’s he making a bet? If it’s an admission, it’s done… We tell you it’s not an admission," Kavanagh said. The defence’s position is that Cormier believed he was Tina’s "surrogate dad" and had given her and her boyfriend drugs and a place to stay when the three met. The last time he saw her, Cormier said, they had an argument and she left. "He did not stop her. That’s why she died. Not that he killed her because she was 15, but because he did not stop her," Kavanagh said.

"He’s also positing that someone else may have found it out, too. We know that Miss Fontaine was holding herself out to be 16 or 18 at different times, (using) different names," Kavanagh said.

 

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CORMIER: "She was 15. I didn’t know that. When I found out, that was it. I said I’m not going to bang her no more. I don’t want nothing to do with you that way."

Crown’s interpretation: This is one of the three times the Crown says Cormier admitted he had sex with Tina and relates to his motive to kill her. "It’s terribly clear and it’s a serious crime," Ross said.

Defence’s interpretation: "It’s not an admission that he banged her previously. He’s saying that while he wanted to bang her, now that he’s found out her age, he no longer wanted to bang her," Kavanagh said.

 

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CORMIER: "If I could reverse time… I’d say I’m gonna f— her and I’m gonna f— her properly and then you can call the cops and put me in jail for the next ten f—in’ years."

Crown’s interpretation: Ross told the jury this is an admission of guilt and more evidence of Cormier’s motive since it shows he was sexually attracted to Tina.

Defence’s interpretation: "The Crown says that’s an admission. We say it’s not. In other words, he got into a big fight with her over her age. They had harsh words, and recall that he had previously said for her to jump off a bridge, and she stormed off. He’s expressing, there, regret that he didn’t stop her. He’s suggesting if he had slept with her… he would go to jail and she wouldn’t have gone off into the night. That’s what that means," Kavanagh said.

 

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In a conversation from Nov. 18, 2015:

CORMIER: "Unfortunately, there’s a little girl in a f—ing grave someplace screaming on top of her lungs for me to f—in’ finish the job. And guess what… I finished the job."

Crown’s interpretation: "You all know who the little girl in the grave is," Ross told the jury, pointing to this comment as an admission of guilt from Cormier.

Defence’s interpretation: The defence argues what Cormier actually said was, "Guess what, I’m finishing the job," and was talking about the job of finding Tina’s killer. "He’s searching for the killer. That’s what Miss Fontaine wants from him," Kavanagh said, "and it makes sense when you look at all the other transcripts and how he wants to find the person responsible, he wants to understand the context of her death." But even if the jury doesn’t think that’s what it means, "how can that statement out of the blue amount to a confession or an admission? It’s nebulous. It comes from nowhere."

 

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CORMIER: "I beat two murders."

Crown’s position: Ross suggested the defence would say Cormier is referring to what he believed was the death of a domestic violence victim named Jenna. The Winnipeg Police Service staged a loud argument between two undercover officers in Cormier’s apartment building on Oct. 1, 2015.

The female officer, "Jenna," was made up to look bloodied and beaten. She pretended to be unconscious as Cormier saw her body being carried out of the building. Cormier never saw Jenna again and police wanted to know his reaction to that scenario. If one of the murders Cormier "beat," was Jenna, Ross said to the jury, "What’s the other?" suggesting Cormier was admitting to murdering Tina.

Defence’s position: This conversation happened in September, before the undercover police domestic violence scenario, so it can’t be what Cormier is talking about. "It’s inappropriate for you to use that against Mr. Cormier. It’s out of nowhere, it’s hanging, it’s not an admission," Kavanagh said.

 

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In conversation with a female acquaintance on Sept. 25, 2015:

CORMIER: "You ever been haunted by something? I know I’m really moving into the realm of f—in’ psychiatry… psychology. What happened there really, f—, it’s not right. F—! It’s right on the shore. So what do I do? Threw her in."

"What do you mean?" his female acquaintance asks.

CORMIER: "I did Tina, f—in’ supposed to be legal and only 15. (Inaudible) no going back too. The cops said if there would have been DNA and then probably they would’ve had enough evidence to charge me you know that, for the murder of Tina Fontaine. (Inaudible) Tina Fontaine’s dead, I told you she was (inaudible) what happened that night. I told ’em what happened, that it, it there may or may not be any problems, but f—in’ someone (Inaudible) saw the truck and (Inaudible) what time (Inaudible) get this.

Do you know what MOM means when you’re being investigated? (Inaudible) in-in-investigated, and me being investigated? You know what MOM means? OK, let’s say you’re this guy, let’s say you’re the Crown prosecutor and I’m the cop, you say, well, OK let’s see if this guy did it. Did he have the MOM? You know what the MOM is? The MOM is, "The Means, The Opportunity and the Motive."

There’s things you don’t know about the investigation that went down (Inaudible) and they’re not that great because people always (Inaudible) I know that I got caught in a f—in’ situation. (Inaudible) holy f—. I have never murdered anybody, that’s what everyone’s telling them. (Banging heard). I stabbed a few people but, ‘er, how old is that s—, shot them up a bit. And then I know (Inaudible) raised a f—in’ s— but not a, not a f—in’ (Inaudible) I know that.

I don’t do that, if I could reverse time, holy f— man, I would f— her! I’d go to jail for f—ing things happened for f—in’ her that time, I’d go to jail if, if, if it could bring her back again, and forget and regret this happened and (Inaudible) May. I would, my word, I would. If sure if I could reverse time right now with Tina there and Sarah (a friend of Cormier) says what are you doing with that girl, I’d say I’m gonna f— her and I’m gonna f— her properly and then you can call the cops and put me in jail for the next ten f—in’ years."

Crown’s interpretation: This conversation "is enough alone to decide this case, we submit," Ross said. "He’s saying the truck was his means," to dispose of Tina’s body.

Defence’s interpretation: "We say that he’s musing about being in the shoes of a possible killer, when the cops think he did it. He’s entering into the realm of psychology, he’s putting himself in their shoes. The ‘I did Tina’… listen to that, it does not resonate with the rest of that transcript and the rest of the wire," Kavanagh said.

"It’s unfair to use this as an admission… it means that he’s analyzing why police think he’s a suspect," Kavanagh said.

"He says, basically, that he’s a s—, perhaps, but ‘I’m not a f—in’ murderer.’ I don’t do that."

 

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In the last intercepted recording that was presented to the jury, Cormier was talking and singing to himself alone in his apartment.

CORMIER: "You think you’ll get the murder out of me, hmm? That’s f—in’ it, man. Get away from me, f–ker, off, get outta here. F— you. F—."

Crown’s interpretation: Ross said this statement isn’t necessary to the Crown’s case. Even if the jury disregards it, the Crown still believes it has proven the allegations against Cormier.

Defence’s interpretation: This is the "most bizarre" attempt to interpret an admission of guilt, Kavanagh said. "He’s rambling. I don’t think that that’s an admission of anything."

 

katie.may@freepress.mb.ca Twitter: @thatkatiemay